Im sure if I had a 280 grain or 300 grain bullet that was a spire point boatail 44 it would have stabilization problems. First, they were cool. Bullet weight: 405 grains. but I know there were .356 and .375 Winchesters, along with 1895s in .45-70 and the .444 Marlin mixed in. And then theres the .404 Jeffery, a superb dangerous-game round. Or how about a 330 grain cast bullet over 55 grains of H-335 giving 2262 fps and 3750 ft.lbs. The carbine version in .30-40 Krag was also at one time an issue gun for the Texas Rangers and the Arizona Rangers. The straight stock with its 27/8-inch drop and hard metal buttplate accentuate recoil forces, but its way more pleasurable to shoot than a big, high-pressure magnum. One so called knowledgeable person actually didnt know the big bore Winchester 94 was rated for much higher pressure than the Marlin 336 or the standard Winchester 94. Accurately shooting 355 gr and 405 gr Beartooth GCHC at 1,950 fps and 1,790 fps. The anomaly of the 444 came along when Winchester chambered their Big Bore 94 action for the round. | Friends of Billy Dixon Bottles & 12-oz. I simply had to have one, and I bought one as soon as it became available. The anomaly of the 444 came along when Winchester chambered their Big Bore 94 action for the round. The .444 Marlin is nearly identical to the .405 Winchester ballistically, but the Marlin model 444 is slimmer and lighter, compared to the bulkier and heavier Winchester model 1895. . A 300-grain soft point or metal patch bullet travelling at 2200 feet per second was the original Winchester factory load. . Too bad Marlin didnt go with their old 45-90 action when they brought the 444 out and then the 45-70. The loadings for the 444 in the Marlin rifle (we will look at the very strong Winchester Big Bore in this caliber later on..) are in Lees book pages 653 thru 656 and he keeps the loads pressures within the 40,000+ psi and cup ranges because of the Marlin action. Lee states with 57 grains under the 200 grain jacketed bullet and 41300 cup the velocity is 2730 fps. Can Coolers | An Official Journal Of The NRA, Find More Great NRA Publications Perfect For Every Interest, Discover Everything That The NRA Has To Offer. Sunday, November 02, 2008 .405 Winchester vs. .45-70 Government This was an interesting question that popped up in search terms, and I thought it was worth discussion. I ran those tests on a calm day from a range rest, from my 24 inch barrel Marlin. Both the cartridges are suitable for up to 200 yards. Though the .45-70 Government cartridge has been in production since 1873, there was a time when a new rifle chambered in that cartridge just wasnt offered. The 300 grain Hornady Interlock and Barnes TSX bullets are particularly high quality choices for reloading. While Im sure it will work in a pinch, that still falls well short of the .300 sectional density recommended for hunting most species of dangerous game. Left to Right: .32 Winchester Special, .30-30 Win., .38-55, .375 Winchester, 444 Marlin, .45-70 Govt. 405 Cal 402 Bore-412 Groove 444 M 421 Bore-431 Groove 458 Cal 450 Bore-458 Groove ---------- ** For other calibers please inquire ** PRICING $300 for 3 groove [as of 10-1-22] Call for 4 or 5 groove Stainless is $25 Additional includes return shipping on std rebore jobs On Wednesday, the Center for Biological Diversity (CBD) sent a notice of intent to sue to the U.S. Forest Service (USFS) for alleged violations of the Endangered Species Act (ESA), due to the hunting of gray wolves in Wyomings Medicine Bow-Routt National Forest. An original 1895 Model in .405 commands a premium, but you can still find a repo occasionally. are more powerful. Mag. But it was only 24 fps higher than the next highest load with a powder I do have Acc1680. Buy it. The recovered bullet was around 55 caliber and 191 grains. FLAT SHIPPING! Its traditional, if not particularly comfortable to shoot. While Roosevelts colorful endorsement of the .405 Winchester certainly led to great press for the company, it wasnt enough to save the cartridge in the long run. Thanks for your comment. If they had it could have been chambered for the 405. Nice article John and thank you for your service. Richard Lees excellent book MODERN RELOADING, 2nd Edition gives the following information on heavy bullet loads.pgs..431/432. Compare specifications of CVA Scout V2 Takedown 444 Marlin CR4913SSC and CVA Hunter 444 Marlin CR5711. The U.S. Army adopted the new cartridge, which replaced the .50-70 cartridge it employed in 1866. Today the .444 has a small but staunch following among lever action big bore enthusiasts. That was until someone reminded me that a 444 Marlin is very close to it balistically and that I already have a 444. It was this encounter that led to the now famous quote that he documented on page 200 of African Game Trails: Tarlton took his big double-barrel and advised me to take mine, as the sun had just set and it was likely to be close work; but I shook my head, for the Winchester 405 is, at least for me personally, the medicine gun for lions. I grant you its not a ton of fun from the bench. Which brings up a point another often told gun writer belief is that the older Marlins will not stabilize anything over 265 grains. of energy but Im trying to keep this oranges and oranges). If looking to acquire an automated powder-charge dispensing unit to speed up precision reloading, don't judge the RCBS ChargeMaster Lite powder scale and dispenser by its name; the Little Green machine packs a heavy-weight punch with speed and accuracy. I love the wood on this gun. the biggest bull was half facing me, just two hundred and eighty yards off; I fired a little bit high and a trifle to the left; but the tiny ball broke his back and the splendid beast, heavy as a prize steer, came plunging and struggling to the ground. To fill the void, Marlin Firearms teamed up with Remington to develop a cartridge which would see the light of day in 1964: the .444 Marlin. Winchester 94AE 444 Marlin caliber rifle. In 1904, it debuted on the Winchester 1895 lever-action rifle. soft point or metal patch ( Full Metal Jacket) bullet at 2200 feet per second. Indeed, the .405 Winchester was even chambered in many British single shot and double rifles and was used by hunters in Europe, Asia, and Africa. Can Coolers | An Official Journal Of The NRA, Find More Great NRA Publications Perfect For Every Interest, Discover Everything That The NRA Has To Offer. randyselby@randyscustomrifles.com. Often times I have read that the 444 is the modern 405 replacement. The .444 Marlin has the advantage of using the jacketed and cast bullets for the .44 Magnum, making it a rather flexible design for the handloader. I'm not trying to be beligerant in any way, I am simply asking you guys to show me compared ballistics. "Having tried a variety of bullets in various calibers over my 30 year hunting career, I grew dissatisfied with the performance of the generic brands mainly because of their excessively stiff construction. Bullet Works | Gunblast.Com | Ammo companies and reloading books had gotten comfortable giving out 1800 to 2100 fps loads. psi. Make sure you subscribe to The Big Game Hunting Podcast and follow The Big Game Hunting Blog on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, andYouTube. I can say from experience that the .405 is an excellent deer, hog rifle and is certainly capable of taking the largest big game animals in North America when used within its limitations. leverguns. We've got you covered.7x57mm Mauser vs. .280 Remington.300 Win. Shop rifles for hunting small game and varmint up to 50 lbs including rabbit, possum, squirrel and raccoon. Subscriber Services. My Marlin was purchased in late 1969. It is a slightly tapered case going from .470" at the base to .453" at the case mouth, while the 1.285" long .44 Magnum is a straight case of .456" diameter. I was hoping for reduced recoil with the 300 grain bullet, but now see if I ever go after dangerous game, I have an option. I have a gun like this. President Theodore Roosevelt was a huge fan of the .405 Winchester and took a pair of them on his famous African safari, pronouncing the cartridge as big medicine for lion. Yes, the .444 Marlin is A GOOD CHOICE for grizzly or brown bear hunting, under average conditions, from a mid-range distance, with a medium grain expanding bullet, and with correct shot placement. Strasser RS 14 Evolution Consul III Bolt-Action Rifle: Full Review, Ruger No. Its interesting to see how the accuracy improved as velocity went up, so this gun seems to like em on the warm side. While the current rifle is also available in .30-06, I think for most people the .405 Win., which made its debut in 1904, will be the more interesting chambering. Snow. However, what really caught the eye of hunters at the time was the fact that the rifle was also available in the brand new .30 US Army (aka .30-40 Krag) cartridge. The bullet can take out games like bear, deer, elk, and moose at a distance of 200 to 250 yards with precise accuracy. Every 444 Marlin level load exceeds the 308's power level in each of their respective loadings. The .405 also outdoes Hornadys 265-grain LeverEvolution load in the .444 Marlin at 3,180 ft.-lbs., but the .444 Marlin Superformance (3,389 ft.-lbs.) The Big Game Hunting Blog is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com, Amazon.co.uk, Amazon.ca, Amazon.com.au, and other Amazon stores worldwide. The well-shaped fore-end feels good in the hands and features a graceful Schnabel tip. To show viewers how to succeed at long range, J. Guthrie gears up for a challenging shot while chasing Colorado pronghorn at long range with DPMS' Panther 6.5 Creedmoor. At the same time, it was also excellent for use on just about every species of African plains game. .260 Diameter The .260" bullets are most often used with the 6.5 x 70R cartridge. Im only aware of one Hornady load for the .405 Winchester and it uses a 300gr bullet with a .254 sectional density. of muzzle energy. Mag..375 Ruger vs. .375 H&H Magnum7mm-08 Remington vs. .280 Remington .280 Remington vs. .280 Ackley Improved 7mm vs. .30 Caliber6.5 Weatherby RPM vs. 6.5 PRC.338 Win. Bottles & 12-oz. Grizzly Cartridges | Cast Contributor Brad Fenson is back in the kitchen with another recipe for uplanders across the continent. It was designed by the legendary gun designer, John Moses Browning. When I suggest that I can push the 250 grain Nosler at 2470 fps with 54 grains of ReL #7 for 3388 ft. lbs. While I think the .444 Marlin is a sound design, there is such a diversity in the .45-70 Government makes it a logical and abundant choice for the hunter. I was pushing those 240s over 2600 fps. This means you have the option to read your magazine on most popular phones and tablets. Its close to the .410 diameter of the .450/400 Nitro Express 3-inch, which is justifiably admired as a dangerous-game cartridge, but the Nitro pushes a 400-grain bullet at 2,050 fps for 3,700 ft.-lbs. For that reason, Ruger produced their ubiquitous Number 1 Tropical rifle in .405 Winchester for a time and Winchester has offered a couple of limited commemorative production runs of Model 95 rifles made by Miroku over the years as well. PS- I didnt look at the date of your article but I suspect it pre-dates Hornadys introduction of .405 ammunition. Previously sold. SEE IT. Still on the fence. 1 Single-Shot Rifle: Tips to Improve Its Accuracy, Enfield No. Bryce M. Towsley This cartridge has the potential to be the best deer hunting ammo . This means that the momentum of a rifle's reaction will exactly equal the momentum of the bullet and powder gasses ejected from the barrel. was the most powerful lever-action cartridge of its day, making the Model 1895 Winchester the king of the lever-gun hill. Marlin introduced the .444 Marlin in 1964. New Primed Brass & 250ct. For one thing, the Winchester 1895 had a reputation for punishing recoil when equipped with the standard curved rifle butt plate. After its introduction, the 1895 rifle and .405 Winchester cartridge quickly became very popular among American hunters. Our experience had convinced us that both the Winchester .405 and the Springfield .300 [.30-06] would do good work with elephants; although I kept to my belief that, for such very heavy game, my Holland .500/450 was an even better weapon, he wrote in African Game Trails. A centerfire cartridge, the.405 Winchester rifle cartridge is made by Winchester. Well I hope not I happen to like the 405 just the way it is and would hate to see it replaced by anything. Mag. Heck, the .405 Winchester was so popular that Kynoch produced factory ammunition for the cartridge for several years. thats his top load in velocity with the 200 grain bullet. The original Winchester factory load consisted of a . He also gives loads for 280 and 300 grain jacketed bullets. The standard load will push a 240-grain .429-inch diameter bullet to 2400 fps for just over 3,000 ft.-lbs. While the .405 is distinctly lacking in factory offerings, fortunately for the 1895 it loves Hornadys 300-grain load. This is still one of the most powerful rimmed cartridges designed specifically for lever-action rifles. John. African Game Trails by Theodore Roosevelt (p29, p141, p190-191, and p200), theIdeal Catalog Book No.17 circa 1906, the Winchester Handbook (p154), the Lyman 50th Edition (p335),and Hornady 10th Edition (p724-725) reloading manuals were also used as references for this article. Browse rifles for sale by action type, including Bolt Action, Lever Action, Semi Automatic and Break Action rifles. Manufacturer: Winchester . (it slugged at .414 groove) I recently sold the CZ, (age is catching up to me) but in the round-about trade, wound up with a miroku 95. 444 marlin vs 45-70 recoil When it comes to recoil, a 444 has less recoil than a 45 70. The Model 94 TE is also chambered in the ubiquitous .30-30 Win. When I was a kid, there were three reasons I wanted a lever action rifle. Jun 28, 2014. What is the average muzzle energy for a .444 Marlin? and the 250 grain jacketed bullet in 308 is just about the highest weight we can find unless we go to custom bullet makers. It was an interesting matchshoot whatcha brung, provided that it is a lever-action or single shot rifle with iron sights. [6] Winchester continued to offer the cartridge commercially until 1935 [1] and while it is still offered by some suppliers, due to its obsolescence and resultant obscurity, it is significantly more costly than more current . Which were light even for the Marlin action rated at 40,000+ cup. I have never had a problem getting excellent accuracy out of heavy bullets. and one of my favorites has been a 280+ grain cast bullet. Not always the most accurate, or the most velocity. . These permit installation of a receiver sight. The 220 grain .308 bullet at 2300 fps from at .308 rifle with a 3" 100 yard setting will be right on at 200, 7" low at 250 yards, and near 15 inches at 300 yards. (taken from the Hornady ballistics tables, the heaviest .308 bullet in the Hornady ballistics section). 4x4 that stinks, but there's always next year. #6/55. But it is no 405. President Theodore Roosevelt hailed the.405 Winchester on a tour to East Africa in 1909. Starline Brass 444 Marlin Unprimed Brass, 50 Count. Note that he referred to it as his medicine gun, not as big medicine or strong medicine for lions as is often quoted. With an Accu-Fit stock and left hand adjustable bolt, this rifle is a perfect choice for anyone! It can be understood when we realize most gun writers dont do much with Manufacturer While Roosevelt did have great success hunting a variety of African large game creatures using a Winchester Model 1895 rifle chambered in.405 Winchester, the story of the cartridge is much more than Roosevelt's adventure. As an aside, I was discussing this cartridge with Craig Boddington, and he told me his daughter Brittany used the .405 Win. I worked up four handloads with Hodgdon H4198 and the same Hornady bullets found in its factory ammo. 444 Marlin .429 LR 44-40 WCF .427 LR 445 Super Magnum .430 LP 45 ACP .451 LP 45 Auto Rim .451 LP 45 Colt (Long Colt) .452 LP 45 GAP .451 LP Lets look at the similarities, differences and applications of each. Length of pull is 13.25 inches. The 265 Hornaday has taken a couple whitetails past 200 yds. T. Riekers Sporting Agency & Gun Works | Steve's That gun has been sitting in the safe for so long I had almost forgotten about it. If you think a 44 Mag is bad than leave the bigger guns alone. In my experimenting so far, .303 takes several shots to fire-form and the rim thickness is too much. I think the sectional density issues have been solved. The .243 Winchester bullet has a balistic coefficient of 0.405 while .444 Marlin bullets have a ballistic coefficient of 0.225. The original Winchester factory load consisted of a 300gr. Being bracketed by the proven .444 Marlin and .45-70, the belted .450 Marlin doesn't fill a lever-gun niche any better than the other cartridges. Gunz | Henry Yes, its a liability-driven decision. The .444 Marlin was available in a svelte Marlin lever-action riflethe Model 444and proved to be a thumper on big game from whitetails to moose and bear, though like the .45-70, the range was limited by the low velocity and bullet profiles. . Bullets from Barnes, NF, and Woodleigh make a big difference in the effectiveness of the cartridge. Now saying all this, and quoting Lees loads.. 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