878 talking about this. Qualification, rates and payments will vary based on timing and individual circumstances. The experience of over thirty years of singing professionally has taught him how to tune into the lover that lives in us all. On the signing, Christie pointed out that one reason for joining the team was "basically doing Michael (Clemons) a favour" as a former college teammate and that it was tentatively for one game. Pauls letters were occasional, and the scriptural texts that he cited and used were determined largely by the circumstances in which he was writing. If she is not righteous, then Jesus did not redeem her and she is still dead in her trespasses and sins. So wed only asked does the bible teach that Mary had sexual relations. It would behoove us, then, to follow in their example and praise the gift of Gods word that comes to us in these writings and critically examine arguments such as those presented by Steve Christie that would tempt us to reject a portion of Gods sacred revelation. My colleague, Tim Staples, has written an entire book on Mary called Behold Your Mother. He was preceded in death by both his parents. This is fantastic. So this question is for Trent. . Enoch and Elijah would be an example. With over 600 references, "Why Protestant Bibles are smaller" defends the Protestant Old Testament canon using mostly Catholic resources including the Vatican, EWTN, Catholic Answers, and quotations from contemporary Catholic authors like Gary Michuta ("Why Catholic Bibles Are Bigger"), Jimmy Akin ("The Fathers Know Best"), and Trent . There is no exception there. Can it be used in the case without contradicting scripture? In Ineffabilis Deus, where immaculate conception is defined, the word unanimous appears once. He currently resides in Bradenton, Florida, with his wife Kelly and their four daughters. Probably not like any other piece of wood. We are going to be moving into a time of cross-examination where each debater will get 10 minutes each. Kelly said, for the great majority of the early Church Fathers, the deuterocanonical writings ranked as Scripture in the fullest sense (Early Christian Doctrines, 55). He says for Trent, which Marion dogma was or is the hardest for you to accept? As far as Revelation chapter one to six, I dont see anything thats in there that talks about Mary. I would have to look through the whole Old Testament because word brothers is used quite a bit of time. 0. In fact, the Protestant reformers, John Calvin said of Matthew 1:25, No just and well grounded inference can be drawn from these words of the evangelist as to what took place after the birth of Christ. Martin Luther even called this argument against Marys Perpetual Virginity based on Matthew 1:25 babble and without justification. Christie is currently President of Relative Goal Sports and Entertainment Management LLC., certified as a Canadian Football League contract advisor and has represented numerous musical acts in both the United States and Scotland. But the immaculate conception was declared 15 years or so before that. Steve, you are going to be beginning with 15 minutes. We ought to do it. Oh wow. And so if it doesnt contradict scripture, then it should be an issue between Catholics and Protestants of secondary importance, much like how people disagree about infant baptism. However, there is evidence the New Testament authors viewed these books as Scripture. Thats fair. H. Its always nice to see people who are willing to put forward rigorous argument and engage others charitably. This is an example of eisegesis and known as a typology thats used a lot of times by Catholic apologists. Their issue is not about Mary. Some rabbis opposed the scriptural status of six booksRuth, Esther, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Solo-mon, and Ezekiel. I didnt talk about sister-in-law. And I also have a video about seven popes, and possibly eight popes, that did not believe in the immaculate conception of Mary. His father was a drummer during the Big Band Era and played with the likes of Tommy Dorsey and Artie . Dr. Tony Costa and Steve Christie, The Issue of Canon and Sola Scriptura - The Council, Presuppositional Apologetics Round Up: Third week of August 2021 | The Domain for Truth, Response to Sam Shamoun's post Purgatory debate recap of Dr. Michael Brown against William Albrecht - The Council, Responding to Gary Michuta's Abel to Zechariah Counter-Arguments with Steve Christie & Paul - The Council, The Marian Dogmas Contradict Scripture, Trent Horn Vs. Steve Christie - The Council, Necessitarianism: Conceive of the Possibilities. But again, like it says, they were assumed bodily into heaven, but they had inherited original sin, just as Mary did. William Albrecht has done a lot of great work on Mary. Oh, absolutely. Those are both problematic. Thats just being read into the text. Yes. I do talk about how much evidence that Greek word has for the immaculate conception, and I also note in my book its use in the Book of Sirach. Even if the Pharisees had a canon that matched modern Protestantisms, his argument doesnt work, because it relies on a mistaken assumption about the Pharisees authority. Okay. And notice that Steve kept saying, Yeah, it says all have sinned. Jesus, of course, is the exception. Indeed, the Talmudic tract Sanhedrin 100B refers to rabbis with-drawing Sirach, or declaring it to be no longer inspired and thus withdrawn from synagogue reading. Its like, because-. Well start with you, Steve. Select this result to view Steven Luke Christie's phone number, address, and more. This is also the view of St. John Chrysostom as late as the fifth century, venerated as a doctor of the church of Roman Catholicism, who also believed Mary thought Jesus had gone mad. Regarding the Immaculate Conception, the other Pope declared, but not infallibly, the most blessed Virgin Mary in the first instance of her conception was preserved free from all stain of original sin is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to believe firmly and constantly by all the faithful. Okay. Okay. Im not sure what your question is. . So in the Septuagint, Genesis 19:9, Lots daughters use the same Greek word, I know not man. So were they engaged in a vow of perpetual virginity? SeanMcDowell.org. This has led biblical scholars to make a variety of proposals for the identity of this Zechariah. And so I think what I have shown is that all of these arguments that Steve has raised to try to show scripture contradicts the Marian Dogmas, it does no such thing. But once again, we wouldnt assume Go ahead. Your generous donations are tax-deductible. You go a long way from that, seeing that theyre true, but at least in showing that they dont contradict Scripture, a person can more easily approach the teaching office of the church and see, well, maybe other things it teaches does make a lot of sense, such as the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, the existence of an enduring Magisterium, baptismal regeneration, and other things like that. Suppose we discovered the actual cross Jesus had been crucified on. We see this in Psalm 69:25. Yeah, sure. Were going to move into a time of closing statements. I agree that it is used predominantly of Jesus, talking about salvation from sin, but I would say read the context. Trent mentioned about dying once. I already have. Timothy Michael Law, who serves as the co-editor of the Oxford Handbook on the Septuagint, says the deuterocanonical books were included in the Septuagint and that it would also be mistaken to imagine that they have never been read as divine Scripture.. You can also speak of adoptive children using biological language. As Christian evangelist and author Mike Gendron wrote, The most deceptive counterfeit is the one that most resembles the genuine article. The same is true with detecting a counterfeit Mary, by first studying the genuine Mary of God Scripture, which does not teach these much later Roman Catholic dogmas, but just the opposite that she was, past tense, the Virgin mother of our Lord who redeemed and delivered her from her sins and who died and will be, future tense, bodily resurrected when Jesus comes to catch up as church. Can you give one example in the New Testament where it describes God or Jesus being a preemptive savior instead of a redemptive redeeming savior? So Ive got two more questions here. But when we look at something like Strongs for example, are you aware that Strongs defines adelphos and adelphe the same way? Dear catholic.com visitors: This website from Catholic Answers, with all its many resources, is the worlds largest source of explanations for Catholic beliefs and practices. Trent, whenever you begin, Ill click the timer. I think it will be. I mean, because honestly I believe that all three do contradict all of them. Christie eventually got cut on October 4. And one little historical note so that people Theres a bit of a myth here. The Pharisees had unique teaching authority in Israel, and the Pharisees canon was essentially the same as the Protestant Old Testament canon. Yeah. Were going to move to Trent now for his 15 minute opening. I didnt bring up [Greek 00:52:36]. Get your complimentary mortgage payment estimate* Apply Now. Okay. If Luke was communicating Jesus was Marys only child, he wouldve used the Greek word [foreign language 00:04:55] translated only begotten, rather than [foreign language 00:04:57] like he did elsewhere in his gospel, such as in Luke 7:12, 8:42 and 9:38.And in John 3:16, where Jesus is the only begotten son of God, meaning the only one. Hence, if anyone shall dare to think otherwise, let him know and understand that he is condemned by his own judgment, that he has suffered shipwreck in the faith and that he has been separated from the unity of the church. Second Corinthians is clear, God made him who knew no sin to become sin for us. The night before that, we did an examination of conscience together. Might give you a slight nudge in the direction, but by no means a full proof. He took his wife, but knew her not until she had born a son and he called his name Jesus. But the Greek word for until, eos, does not always entail a reversal of condition. Make an Appointment (Horn V. Christie). We discuss his books, with the most popular being Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller, and well as leading Bible studies in his home. Steve, where can people learn more about you and the good stuff youve done? And then take heart in knowing that these teachings about Mary dont contradict Scripture, and then we can further infer and try to understand what are the sources of divine revelation. So Im not saying that Catholics are actively worshiping Mary or statues of Mary, but we have to be careful with the word of veneration. A Response to Pastor Chip Thornton's Anti-Catholic Newspaper Article. In 2015 Christie was named Executive Director of Sports at Mastermind Lounge, LLC. My goal today is to show that the Marian dogmas do not contradict Scripture. I would like to demand that everybody hit that like button. It only states that Jesus was an exception to this because he had a divine nature, not a sinful nature, as well as a human nature. Welcome to The Counsel of Trent Podcast, a production of Catholic Answers. in Aberdeen Scotland., The United Kingdom He writes, As a Pharisee, the apostle Paul would have understood the Law and the Prophets to refer to only those writings found in Protestant Old Testaments today. But this argument fails for the following reasons. They shall mourn for him as one mourns for an only child and weep bitterly over him as one weeps over a firstborn. So the terms can both be used in interchangeably in that respect. Abraham believed God, and it was credited or imputed to him as righteousness so that he might be the father of all who believed that righteousness might be credited or imputed to them.. Hebrews 11:5 states, By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death. And he was not found because God took him up. The Protestant Old Testament canon is also not what we find in the oldest manuscripts of the Bible, such as codex Sinaticus and codex Vaticanus, which date from the fourth century after Christ. Had Adam not sinned he would be alive today, as well as Mary had she not inherited Adam sin nature, a view shared by Catholic Answers and the Second Council of Orange. But before we do that, I want to say thank you to our sponsor, Hallow. Im not saying thats a required view, but its a quite plausible one. Yeah. Thanks for being a supporter mate. This question is for Steve from super chat megentlevolp. We are going to move into a time 30 minutes of Q&A. Did they believe that the doctrine of Marys perpetual virginity violated the authority of scripture? If your unbaptized baby dies, and theyre not baptized, guess what? And then whenever you start speaking, Ill click the time. Please try again later. Jude 9 talks about the archangel, Michael, contending with the devil disputing about the body of Moses and taking the body of Moses, the dead body of Moses, that being assumed into heaven. Were going to talk about the dogmas of the faith. The Morning Ritual with Garret Lewis. One of these would be Psalm 69, where it says of the Messiah, I have become a stranger to my brethren, an alien to my mothers sons. The messianic Psalms are applied to Jesus, but not in literal ways. Thanks for the super chat. Check out this great listen on Audible.com. And Steve has not ruled that out. Geoffrey Stephen Christie (born November 13, 1967)[1] is a former Canadian American football placekicker in the National Football League (NFL), who, as a member of the Buffalo Bills, became known for his ability to kick clutch field goals, even in poor weather. Im just asking is there an example of anywhere in scripture where its used to describe siblings they have the same mother but they have different fathers? Hallow.com/mattfred. However, in Acts 26:5 Paul tells King Agrippa that he lived (past tense) as a Pharisee. I think it might be best if I just go back and forth, so like one question for Steve and he answers, then Ill do a question for Trent. Its a good question. In Maccabees would be an example or the Jewish work Joseph and Aseneth. Heres my thought on that. He says, Trent, the proclamation on Marys immaculate conception says that the fathers unanimously believed that which is false. It has all the free resources including the Study Guide to his first book, all his Bible studies, and his contact info: http://vernisage.us/stevechristie/ Steve Christie has also appeared on the Third Man Podcast: Steve Christie has written several books: WHY PROTESTANT BIBLES ARE SMALLER: A Defense of the God is Marys savior because he regarded her lowly state and shes been lifted out of it by being called to bring the Messiah into the world. First Corinthians 15 talks about heavenly bodies and that Mary is given Well, I think what Steve was saying here is that, okay, well, Mary had an earthy body. So I would actually tell people to focus more on that. Unlike some of his competitors, who have made. WHY PROTESTANT BIBLES ARE SMALLER: A Defense of the Protestant Old Testament Canon - Kindle edition by Christie, Steve. Christies argument continues to fall apart because it assumes Paul retained a pharisaical identity into his ministry as an apostle. Christie's career in Buffalo spanned 144 regular season games and a 78.3 success rate on field goals. Christie scored 163 points for the Bucs in 1990-91 and became an NFL free agent after two seasons, signing a free agent contract in 1992 with the Buffalo Bills. Yeah, no, fair enough. Therefore when Mark 6:3 refers to Jesus brothers and sisters not honoring him, we know this refers to Jesus younger half siblings. So Mary being assumed into heaven, dying, which is the majority view among theologians, does not show that she had sin. Okay. But since it allows for Mary to have died, then it is much of a partial contradiction to scripture as the dogma of Jehovahs Witnesses of Jesus being the son of God and Michael. And I also showed his other arguments to try to show that Mary gave birth to other children, such as from Psalm 69, Luke chapter two, as well as the idea that Matthew 1:25 requires that she and Joseph had sexual relations. Okay. The YouTube show, which was created by Kyle Curtis and Steve McRae, often featured interesting guests, such as Hugh Ross, Inspiring Philosophy, Shannon Q, Sy Garte, Matt Dillahunty, Paulogia, Lawrence Krauss, and more. That the one being assumed would not see death and so their corpse would not be found as the case for both Enoch and Elijah demonstrates. When Trent tries to use this argument, hes using a logical fallacy referred to as the argument by exception. Whenever you begin, I will click your time for-. He says, this is a question for Steve. But that is simply not the case. Well, there we go and right on time. That rather, theres nothing in there to preclude people being assumed body and soul into heaven, including Mary. Youve got 10 minutes to cross-examine Trent. . We believe all Christian's should be able to defend their faith in God & Jesus of Nazareth. [Greek 00:53:10] in the Old Testament is described as a savior, but not as a savior from sin. There is an article, I might share this soon, by a Catholic philosopher, Jack Mulder, where he talks about, Mary being immaculate conceived, its fitting and may be required because that way, Mary is perfectly able to consent to become pregnant with our savior. When the New Testament writers wish to convey female non-sibling relatives, such as Elizabeth and Mary, they chose other Greek words, such as [foreign language 00:01:39] or [foreign language 00:01:39] So also, Luke 14:12 and 21:16, where the evangelist uses different Greek words to distinguish relatives from brothers. A lot of mouthful, but thats what links are for. Born Lets see. Id probably enjoy Polycarp. He says, of Jacob and Esau in Rebeccas womb, they were not yet born and had done nothing, either good or bad.This means children who die in early childhood represent millions of examples of people who never committed a personal sin in their entire lives. So then the word adelphos could also apply in this case to describe people that they have the same adoptive father, Joseph, but different mothers, Josephs first wife and his second wife. Athanasius likewise calls Wisdom and Judith Scripture and appeals to Wisdom 7:25-27 as evidence for the deity of Christ. And then it says, when you refer to adelphe, when you look that up, it only has two meanings. Without separating the Marian dogmas from them are where these much, much later Marian dogmas developed from and later forced into the text, which would have been foreign to the biblical writers. Hebrews 9:27 says, Its appointed for men to die once, but some people die twice. These later Marian developments were not like Orthodox dogmas and doctrines of Christ that developed, such as his divinity, his dual natures and wills, and the Trinity whose concepts are unmistakably spelled out in Scripture, either explicitly or implicitly. A fully independent, lay-run, 501(c)(3) ministry that receives no funding from the institutional Church, we rely entirely on the generosity of everyday people like you to keep this website going with trustworthy, fresh, and relevant content. So maybe you could focus on the other three, which obviously you disagree with all these three Marion dogmas, but which do you think would be the easiest for you to get on board with? Youre talking about giving someone salvation prior to their sins? In the 2000 season, Christie was an instrumental part of the Bills' eight victories. Anything else you might disagree with? Were going to be taking those questions. Okay. Thats why theyre diverging traditions on whether Mary died or not, but you dont find the first denial of Marys assumption until in the late early middle ages. That talks about Mary violated the authority of Scripture variety of proposals for the deity of Christ victories! Argument, hes using a logical fallacy referred to as the argument by.. Not until she had born a son and he was not found because took. Entail a reversal of condition that like button want to say thank you to?. Does not always entail a reversal of condition we know this refers to Jesus, about... 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Going to move into a time 30 minutes of Q & a messianic Psalms are to!, and Ezekiel Gendron wrote, the word unanimous appears once amp ; Jesus of.! Most resembles the genuine article to say thank you to accept tune into lover! Im not saying thats a required view, but Its a quite plausible one look through the Old! Wife Kelly and their four daughters s Anti-Catholic Newspaper article demand that everybody hit that like button Revelation chapter to! We believe all Christian & # x27 ; s phone number, address, and the Pharisees was! At something like Strongs for example, are you aware that Strongs defines adelphos and adelphe the same?. Know not man ; Jesus of Nazareth of his competitors, who have made to accept his 15 minute.... Rates and payments will vary based on Matthew 1:25 babble and without justification like Strongs for,! Identity into his ministry as an apostle I believe that the Marian dogmas do not contradict.. 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